----- Original Message -----
From: two2tandem@juno.com
Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2002 9:45 AM
Subject: usury:
shalom bro yeri!!
i was reading the end of the dialogue from last nights
message and found this statement you made to catymarie:
<YeriYah> most people don't know that YHWH forbids paying intrest
it didn't sound right, so i did a search and found the
following verses in torah. what i found there is: paying
interest is not prohibited, however, charging interest to a brother is.
catymarie's mortgage company can charge her interest and do what ever they
like. they are most likely gentiles and most certainly she is a
stranger to them. if on the other hand, she had financed her home
through her family or 'brethren', they are the ones not to charge her
interest. if they would decide to charge her, then she would still
have the choice to take the loan or not, but perhaps their status would be
"stranger" to her. even if the mortgage company is run by
israelites, she as a gentile may be charged interest by them:
0251 xa ‘ach awkh
a primitive word; TWOT-62a; n m
AV-brethren 332, brother 269, another 23, brotherly 1, kindred 1, like 1,
another 1, other 1; 629
1) brother
1a) brother of same parents
1b) half-brother (same father)
1c) relative, kinship, same tribe
1d) each to the other (reciprocal relationship)
1e) (fig.) of resemblance
1a) brother of same parents
1b) half-brother (same father)
1c) relative, kinship, same tribe
1d) each to the other (reciprocal relationship)
1e) (fig.) of resemblance
the other thing i found interesting is that in the exo.
verse, the lending is done towards the poor. does this give a
definition of poor? if that's the case, anyone who uses credit cards,
purchases cars on loan, has mortgages etc, would be poor - unable to purchase
items without loan money.
Ex 22:25 If thou lend money to any of my people that is poor by thee,
thou shalt not be to him as an usurer, neither shalt thou lay upon him
usury.
Le 25:36 Take thou no usury of him, or increase: but fear thy God; that thy brother may live with thee.
Le 25:37 Thou shalt not give him thy money upon usury, nor lend him thy victuals for increase.
De 23:19 Thou shalt not lend upon usury to thy brother; usury of money, usury of victuals, usury of any thing that is lent upon usury:
De 23:20 Unto a stranger thou mayest lend upon usury; but unto thy brother thou shalt not lend upon usury: that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all that thou settest thine hand to in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
Le 25:36 Take thou no usury of him, or increase: but fear thy God; that thy brother may live with thee.
Le 25:37 Thou shalt not give him thy money upon usury, nor lend him thy victuals for increase.
De 23:19 Thou shalt not lend upon usury to thy brother; usury of money, usury of victuals, usury of any thing that is lent upon usury:
De 23:20 Unto a stranger thou mayest lend upon usury; but unto thy brother thou shalt not lend upon usury: that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all that thou settest thine hand to in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
in the prophets, there are verses which would seem to
indicate that taking money that must be paid back with interest is also
wrong. between which people are they speaking? israelites
and israelites? israelites and strangers? i propose that those
verses have to do with the relationship between israelites and israelites
because deu. 23 says money can be lended to a stranger with interest. an
israelite who goes to a stranger for a loan (who will charge interest)
may be wrong when he/she could go to a brother and get the money without
interest. maybe this last thought i had is an issue of pride.
it doesn't say anything specific to an israelite going to a stranger for a
loan, but it makes sense to me that they would stay within their gates and
not have dealings with outsiders.
in Jer 15:10 (Woe is me, my mother, that thou
hast borne me a man of strife and a man of contention to the whole earth! I
have neither lent on usury, nor men have lent to me on usury; yet every one
of them doth curse me.), jerimiah is indicating that he has treated the
other israelites as brothers and they have treated him the same when it
comes to money, but yet they don't treat him as a brother in other ways -
they curse him.
;)ove, d.
when you prayed for truth, were you expecting to get what you already know?
author very well known
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Deut 15:6-8
6 For YHWH, your Elohiym blesses you, as He promised you: and you shall lend to many nations, but you shall not borrow; and you shall reign over many nations, but they shall not reign over you.
7 If there be among you a poor man of one of your brethren within any of your gates in your land which YHWH, your Elohim gives you, you shall not harden your heart, nor close your hand from your poor brother:
8 But you shall open your hand wide to him, and shall surely lend him sufficient for his need, in that which he is lacking.
author very well known
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----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2002 11:28 AM
Subject: Re:
Shalom Dee,
Interesting what you have said here. I
think we are not to borrow from strangers at all based on the following:
Deut 15:6-8
6 For YHWH, your Elohiym blesses you, as He promised you: and you shall lend to many nations, but you shall not borrow; and you shall reign over many nations, but they shall not reign over you.
That to me says we are not to borrow from the stranger and should not have
to because the Brethren are to:
7 If there be among you a poor man of one of your brethren within any of your gates in your land which YHWH, your Elohim gives you, you shall not harden your heart, nor close your hand from your poor brother:
8 But you shall open your hand wide to him, and shall surely lend him sufficient for his need, in that which he is lacking.
Again He sets apart Israel (read faithful) from the nations:
Deut 28:12
12 YHWH shall open to you His good treasure, the heavens to give the rain to your land in his season, and to bless all the work of your hand: and you shall lend unto many nations, and you shall not borrow.
12 YHWH shall open to you His good treasure, the heavens to give the rain to your land in his season, and to bless all the work of your hand: and you shall lend unto many nations, and you shall not borrow.
Seems to me that He is telling .. do not borrow from the stranger and if
you loan to you Brother, do so without interest.
Love you,
Sis YahChannah
----- Original Message -----
From: two2tandem@juno.com
Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2002 12:37 PM
Subject: Re:
thank you sis!! i didn't do a word
search on "borrow" - thanks for the verses. the
statement from bro. yeri is still however not correct. YHWH's
people are forbidden to charge eachother interest, true, but they are
told that they will be the lenders to nations, not the borrowers - as
a sign of His blessing upon them. when read in context, He is not
commanding them to lend and commanding them not to borrow, but telling
them that as a blessing for following His commandments, they will be the
lenders to and not the borrowers of the nations.
see deut 28 the curse chapter verse 44:
He (the stranger) shall lend to thee, and
thou shalt not lend to him: he shall be the head, and thou shalt be the
tail.
as a result of disobedience the israelites could
end up being the borrowers from the stranger instead of the lenders
to the stranger. this would more than likely also entail paying
interest. so it's not forbidden to pay interest. the
point is to obey His commandments which provides for receiving the
blessings and not the curses.
obedient israelites would have no need to go to
the stranger to borrow if those among their brethren are able to provide
for their need.
;)ove, d.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2002 12:57 PM
Subject: Re: Re:
Dee,
I think you and I are saying the same thing. We must not be in
disobedience so we are cursed but still we are not to loan on interest
to a Brother. A Brother should never be forced into borrowing from the
nations.
Love,
Sis YahChannah