The following from d began an interesting series of discussion:

shalom all!!

i have shared this story with e. already and wanted to pass it on to the
group.

a couple of days ago i was sitting in my car as the first one poised at
the stop light.  as i waited for the light to change an older man walked
in front of my car.  he was carrying a plastic bag over his right
shoulder filled with what looked to be clothing and was wearing a white
t-shirt and khaki colored pants.  the left side of the t-shirt (the side
facing me as he passed) had a large yellow stain on it and i had the
impression it was a urine stain.  the pants were rinkled and worn.  "this
man is a drunk and homeless" was my impression,  and i wondered if he was
the same man i had seen earlier laying on a bench at the side of the main
drag of town, his upper body covered with a make-shift blanket just like
i had seen in the "big cities" visited in the past. a first time site for
me in our "little town".
my thoughts went on to other things as he finished his way across the
street when once again my attention was drawn to him as a car passed by
him and honked.  the passenger of the car yelled something out to the man
while smiling.  i had the impression he knew who the man was and was
calling out a greeting.  the older man turned to see who was speaking to
him, not quick enough to recognize the passenger, but smiled and waved.
he then spied me watching him.  he shrugged his shoulders and pointed
toward the car, indicating to me that he had no idea who it was that
greeted him.  i shrugged too.  he spoke a few words which i couldn't
hear, i smiled at him as if i heard it all.  he then reached into his
shirt neck and pulled out what looked to be a rosary with a cross
dangling.  he motioned it toward me.  my thoughts were racing.  thousands
of mini images through my head.  do i wave? do i give the thumbs up? do i
wave him off? do i ignore him? do i give the thumbs down? and what is the
impact of any of these responses? if he's a drunk and homeless and i give
him the thumbs down will he be even more despondant?  if i give him the
thumbs up will he feel better?  if i give the thumbs up is that
encouraging him to continue in his hollow beliefs?  if i give the thumbs
down will it take away from him the only thing he may be holding on to?
but what if what he's holding on to is what got him where he is?  and on
and on

i gave him the thumbs up, he smiled a huge smile, turned and went on his
way.  he was happy, i was left feeling a traitor.

when i told e. this story he explained another option i didn't once
consider.  point to the cross then wave my index finger as if to say "no,
that ain't it" then point up toward our Almighty and give a thumbs up
"He's it".

i wanted to share to get other perspectives as well.

any thoughts on how best to handle these situations while maintaining the
integrity of both parties?

d.

"If you want to feel good, do good."
Shalom Dee,
 
Thanks for sharing that story.  My input is this.... all the options mentioned were in response to this man motioning a cross in your direction.  Another choice might be not responding to that at all, but rather simply smiling and waving to the man or, in fact.. not responding to the man at all.   I don't think we are necessarily bound to react to every gesture or provocation that comes our way.  Sometimes we can just listen and say nothing.
 
dan`l

I am really glad you brought that up Dee, because I think that coincides with our visitor we had last Monday night.

When we meet someone and they tell us what they believe... do we assume a broader picture with the few facts they have given us? Whose to say the old man was not asking you if the rosary was your's? Perhaps he found it and wanted to return it to the owner. The possiblities are endless. I think we as humans, assume too much and tend to fill in the big gaps of information, we do not know yet. I know I am guilty of that, anyways. We can not clump people into catagories in order to guard our insecurities. If someone says they are catholic, does that make them the pope or even a bishop? If someone say they are a christian do that make them responsible for years of deception and misinformation? If a man has yellow on his clothes, does that mean he urinated on them? Could it not have been sweat, from a hard days work? We find evidence that the 'New Testament' was corrupted... could not the Torah have been also? When we search for answers, do we expect to find what we knew all along? Or devistating truths that crush our very beliefs and core of our securities and existance? Therefore, I think, we should tread lightly and with great care because we may find out it is ourselves who are misinformed and presumtious in our beliefs.

Love and with great care

Zanne

thank you for the input zanne.  what you are saying could be true.  i spent many years working in inner-city hospitals and have had my share of taking care of the homeless and drunks.  perhaps those experiences led me to my conclusions about this man.  although i can not say the stain was urine with any certainty, i can say it was not sweat (pattern of the stain went up from the pants on his left side making a circular pattern, not down from the underarm), never the less, i did make some conclusions that were not based on any facts from him.
 
d.
 
ps:  what about "our visitor" last monday night?
thanks to you dan'l, and you are right, they were in response to the motioning of the cross.  up until that point i had been an uninvolved observer.  then he did that, and i felt like i had to respond just to be polite, despite all that was going on in my head.  
 
now that i think about it, it was like an old dracula movie where the cross gets put up infront of the demon and the demon cringes - lol 
 
d. 

I think Ethienne's "other option" is solid.

Sincerely,
Tom

\o_  Dee,

I know I would have done as you did, but I think Ethienne's option would
have been more sound. I will remember his option if I find myself in a
similiar position. Thanks for sharing this.

B'ahava,
Debi

Shabbat Shalom,

If he were homeless why would he also have to be a drunk?

If it was urine on his shirt why would it have to be his urine?


May the Father bless and keep you all.
doe

A man was invited (i think) to visit AmYHWH and was feeling ganged up on, because of what he believed. I think I understood that right? Anyways, the topic had come up on how to handle ppl in chat who have similar beliefs or atleast opposing beliefs. Different ideas on how to approach/deal with individuals like him was discussed later on and I thought it kind of coincided with that. You were probably right in your assessment with the man. Having lived and raise in some 'inner city' neighbourhoods myself some ppl are not hard to figure out. I was not directing it really at you, sorry Dee.

hugs

zanne :)

Hi All,
Not that it matters so much in one way but just for the record Zanne I would like to clarify the situation.
 
This gentleman you speak of had been in contact with me for a couple days. He wanted me to speak with him on IM. When I told him I did not use IM for security reasons, he fretted because he wanted to ask questions and not use email. This was on Thursday.
 
I suggested mirc... I told him how to get to the AmYHWH room... I waited, I sent several follow-up emails.
 
Finally on Friday morning at about 8:45AM I read my mail and found he had sent a message that morning saying he would be on mirc between 8:00 and 8:30 AM but then would check again when he go home from work....
 
The rest as they say is history. I did not invite him to the meeting. I was fairly sure he saw many things differently than many who meet in AmYHWH.
 
I was going to discuss these things with him long before he came to our meeting. Perhaps YHWH did not see it my way since he ended up in a meeting.
 
Shalom, YahChannah
hi zanne (thanks for the hugs),  what was the concensus on how to handle people like him in chat rooms and in life's encounters?  this was originally what i wanted an answer to:  "any thoughts on how best to handle these situations (encounters with evangilizing xtrians) while maintaining the integrity of both parties?"
 
this question is still up for anyone to answer
 
;) d.
d,
 
When I was a teen, I went to Pizza Hut after church one Sunday night with some friends.  It was summer, and I was wearing white pants.  I managed to spill a nearly full glass of Coca-Cola in my lap, dead center.  Guess what color coke turns on white pants?  Hint: if you had seen me that night, you would have sworn that I had lost control of my very full bladder.  It was the right color, and the right location.  Which makes me think of this question:  how does someone get urine on the side of their shirt?
 
I don't know what I would have done in your situation.  Probably, in my current state of contempt for the Xian lies, I might have at least frowned, and possibly given a thumbs-down.  Or most likely, I would have just given a blank stare in my indecision as I weighed possible reactions, until the man gave up waiting for a reaction and gone on.  Only THEN would I have thought of the "perfect" response... ;^)
 

May Yihweh bless you and keep you,

--Salty--

The consensus was that Salty should either shut up his whole face or should immediately leave the chat room. ;^)
 

May Yihweh bless you and keep you,

--Salty--

Not an option Salty...  you have to stay :P
Zanne

Ok Sis, thanks.

I was not sure of the whole situaltion... hence the 'i think' and the 'i think i understand that right'... hugs.

I am not trying to ruffle any feathers or get anyone annoyed (really i don't ;c) ). Just wanted to state my beliefs... think I see why Salty opted out with saying nothing or leaving. Ah well, what can we do?

Hugs!!!

Zanne :)

Well here goes, gang.
As to the fellow on the street, there are institutions better prepared to deal with bag ladies and bums. We are ill prepared and equipped to be of real help on a person to person level. The dangers incurred in this exercise are greater than we ought to expose our selves to. To my way of thinking there is a great difference between the victim of a crime and the one who perpetrates the crime on himself or others. Your response to this individual was appropriate. Keep your windows up, your doors locked, buy reflective film and donate to an organization who is able to render aid to these poor but dangerous people.
As to the interloper at the meeting, Salty did the right thing IMO. Why coddle the Christian consciousness? We need to call a false god a false god and an idolistic ideology just what it is. If not we may as well join the 'pat em n the head, bless them and their house' wallet grabbers.
In His Love is Life... YeriYah benAbba
Love ya Yeri,
 
You and I often don't see things the same way.  I don't think that makes you right and me wrong or vice versa. 
 
I just want to state that I do not agree with the institutional approach to caring for individuals whether for mental OR criminal rationale.   I do understand how convenient 'outta sight outta mind' is though.
 
Also, I love br Salty.. I would not want him to 'shut his whole face OR leave the chat room' when he feels he has something to say.  On the other hand, I don't happen to believe it is coddling christians to listen to what they have to say and to discuss issues with civility.  I know that a favorite response of yours to this is 'we don't have much time left, so I aint gonna waste it re-hashing old ground'.  I think one of the drawbacks to listening to Rush Limbaugh, Hannity & Combs or Bill O'Rielly is that you might come away with new skills at cutting all who disagree with you 'off at the knees'.  I gotta chuckle when I hear these shows touted as 'fair & balanced' or 'no spin zone'.  LOL   
 
Maybe we don't have time for the mentally ill, or to consider true justice for criminals or to listen to others with different ideas.   Maybe we don't have time to help a fellow out of the ditch or feed a hungry stranger... after all we pay taxes for that don't we.. aint that someone elses job??  I'm in a huge hurry to save myself.. i aint got time to screw around with the common folk.  (sarcasm patent pending)
 
I can listen to you say things that I don't agree with and I can still love ya br yeri.
 
dan`l 
Mornin' Br. Dan
 
This e-mail was not to me dan`l but that has never stopped me from butting in before... so here I am in all my glory.
 
Two of the primary gifts we receive from YHWH is time and the capacity to make decisions. These we should use as the treasures they are.
 
We have time, however limited that may turn out to be, and we must use it wisely according to YHWH's will.
 
If we are to be stewards,  I think we agree on this necessity, then we must use the gift of decisive capabilities to determine when, where and how to use this gift of time.
 
I will sit forever talking, questioning, exploring with someone who has shown a desire to know the Father and His will.
 
I am happy to share to the last crumb of bread with a hungry person but I have not a dime for someone I am reasonbly sure will go spend it on booze or other drugs.
 
I think the question of 'institutionalization' is fraught with hidden pitfalls. For me to say I personally will take on every person I see that is either mentally ill or criminally inclined as my personal projects is not only worthless but foolhardy. I take them as my responsibility and I am not qualified, they are then by my delusion denied help from the institution, who are qualified.
 
As far as passing the guy in the ditch.. if he is wounded and in the ditch, I would help him immediately if I could but if he is there sleeping off a drunk, I would not touch him... Why? There would be no benefit for either him or me. 
 
As far as rehashing old ground, (I do not know how to rehash ground so let's plow old ground) I think as long as there are new people we are in contact with, we should happily go over plowed ground as many times as it takes for seed to take root unless they decide to hear no more.
 
I have gotten far too stiff at times and downright impatient at other times.
 
Pray that we all learn to make careful use of time, using it to the major benefit and that we are loving, tenderhearted and merciful to others as YHWH is to us.
 
(I read this to Yeri before sending and he said that was what he was trying to say in the first place)
 
Shalom and Love,
Sis YahChannah
Mornin Sis Yahchannah,
 
I hear what you're saying.  I hope you and Yeri have a great day today.. hope to chat with you two later today.
 
love ya,
 
dan`l
this, bro yeri is what i was asking about.  how do you not coddle the christian consciousness while maintaining a sense of integrity in both parties?  my question is apparently not an easy one to answer as the focus of most answers has been about my pre-judgement about the man. i take this to mean those who answered didn't have an answer, so the question still stands.  "any thoughts on how best to handle these situations (encounters with evangilizing xtrians) while maintaining the integrity of both parties?"
 
in my case, i felt as though i had betrayed any learning of information i had recieved over the years, and YHWH Himself, but had maintained the integrity of the man i encountered - despite his beliefs.  there must be a way to do both, don't you think?
 
;)ove, d.

Shalom d,

I will take a stab at it :-)

Always point Upwards to the source, not to any man or thing, just simply Upwards. If they want to talk, tell them of the freedom and joy which comes from doing the 10 Words written in stone.

Sincerely,
Tom

Dee,
I could second guess many things that you 'might' have done but in actuality in that type of contact, you probably could not have done much.
 
As a woman, it surely would have been risky to have tried to strike up a conversation or any such thing, not knowing what you could expect.
 
You could have 'pointed upward' as Tom says but a christian would point upward to their god 'jes-us'. You could have followed Ethienne's advice but the same answer I think applies.
 
A pleasant smile and a nod is about the only thing you can do in my estimation.
 
Now in a face to face situation it could be very different. I would smile and say I am not a christian, I am a keeper of Torah and follow YHWH alone. That is not 'in your face' and an insult to them. If they wish to know more then o.k. tell them more. If they wish to convert you, smile, say "I won't try to convert you if you don't try to convert me. Have a fine day!"
 
From the "for what it's worth department"
Shalom, Sis YahChannah
thank you tom. 
although i did not recieve the email indicating that you had a loss in your family, i also pray that you and debi are consoled at this time of grief.  may your shiva be quiet and reflective.
 
d.
Shalom All;
 I must apologize for any injury to you all and I am deeply sorry. When I said bums and bag ladies what i tried to portray was a group of people who are in need of professional help. I feel obligated to assist any person whether they have a home or not who can truly profit from my help. My objection is to attempting to lend aid and comfort to the con artist or professional victim or the dangerously mentally unbalanced who need help I am unable to render. When I mentioned supporting an institution who was able to give real help, the DAV the SA or St. Vincent dePaul was not in my mind because i am aware of their ulterior motives. In my way of seeing this problem it is really our problem, we need to fund a professional help provider that is part of AmYHWH. Then the donations would be used to real advantage. I have grown weary of talking about funding a community and this was a method of making us more aware of our now need for such a fund.
In His Love is Life... YeriYah benAbba
thank you sis.  :)  
 
;)ove, d.

Shalom d and all;

Well we have gotten down to a rock solid principle here, haven’t we? According to the definition of the word there is an exclusivity within it that cannot be compromised. Just as surely as I am unable to serve two masters, I can not be faithful to two opposing views? In my understanding YHVH is a loving Father. Father’s love is earned. If we expect His blessings we must be faithful to Him and Him alone. This stands in opposition to Mothers’s love which is unconditional and very catholic. We must by our definition have integrity toward One and One only. Here is the real problem we have to deal with. If we wish to render aid we must be willing to do so based on His principles or we are not truly helping. Does this make sense or is Daniel going to call me a ditto head with a quick sword?

Main Entry: in·teg·ri·ty Pronunciation: in-'te-gr&-tE Function: noun Etymology: Middle English integrite, from Middle French & Latin; Middle French integrité, from Latin integritat-, integritas, from integr-, integer entire Date: 14th century 1 : firm adherence to a code of especially moral or artistic values :

INCORRUPTIBILITY 2 : an unimpaired condition :

SOUNDNESS 3 : the quality or state of being complete or undivided :

COMPLETENESS

synonym see

HONESTY
In His Love is Life... YeriYah benAbba
whoah salty, what a story.  as a teen that must have been some kind of event!!!!!  lol  as far as the stain on the side of the shirt, it happens when sleeping on the side while so out of it (drunken stupor, diabetic coma, drug overdose, dementia), that the person becomes incontinent and the urine stains the clothing.  seen it mostly with incontinent patients or alcoholics.
 
i hear your "THEN would i have thought of the perfect response" - lol

The above letters led to a further discussion that ties in somewhat to this thread. It is under the heading of  'Shabat Services in Hawkins Yesterday'

 

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